ROME – U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See Joseph Donnelly, who will depart from his post this summer, has touted the Vatican as a key partner in promoting human dignity, and, while acknowledging differences over issues such as China and the climate, he played down such divergences.
Speaking to Crux, Donnelly acknowledged that the United States and the Holy See “don’t agree on China.”
“Our experience has been that without China, Russia’s attack against Ukraine would be over, that China supplies them with technology, with information, with assistance that keeps their war machine rolling. China has been incredibly oppressive against the Uyghurs, and parts of the Church,” he said.
However, Donnelly said he has discussed this information with the Holy See and voiced his belief that Rome understands the concerns, but “is hoping that China can start to improve, and we do as well, and is reaching out to try to help the 12 million Catholics there.”
“What we hope is that they do it with a very clear eye of what’s going on in China,” he said.
So far this year, the Vatican has backed two significant events celebrating the centenary of the Council of Shanghai and honoring Cardinal Celso Costantini, a key figure in the development of the Church in China who is credited with facilitating the establishment of diplomatic ties, before they were broken in the Communist revolution.
Vatican Secretary of State Italian Cardinal Pietro Parolin recently spoke at the presentation of a book on Costantini, saying on that occasion, “If there was an opening from the Chinese the Pope would go immediately” to visit.
Donnelly also addressed the issue of the global climate agenda, which Pope Francis criticized the United States for in his October 2023 exhortation Laudate Deum, calling them out specifically for high carbon emissions.
In the document, the pope said, “If we consider that emissions per individual in the United States are about two times greater than those of individuals living in China, and about seven times greater than the average of the poorest countries, we can state that a broad change in the irresponsible lifestyle connected with the Western model would have a significant long-term impact.”
In response to this statement, Donnelly said, “we know the facts. We know how hard our country has worked to meet all of the climate goals.
“We continue to pursue that, to work every day for a cleaner planet, for a safer planet, and that’s the information we provide the Holy See. We hope they can see just how well we’re doing,” he said.
The following is Crux’s interview with Donnelly.
Crux: Why are you stepping down now?
Donnelly: We have a term coming up and finishing, so either way the election goes, I was going to be finished up right after, at the very latest in November. Whether it’s President Biden or someone else, I want to give them the opportunity to put another ambassador in place for another term. This is just a few months short of that, and there’s a lot going on back home and I miss my family as well, so I thought it’s pretty much the right time.
What would you say you have learned about the Vatican in your time as a diplomatic actor here?
I think I already knew this, but just how critical the Vatican, the Holy See, the Holy Father is, to all the big issues of the world. From the moment I set foot here – the first day, there was a Mass for peace in Ukraine in St. Peter’s Basilica – until today, Russia’s unjust invasion of Ukraine has been front and center. The pope has worked on this, everybody in the Vatican has. We as an embassy have coordinated with the Vatican to try to help Ukraine.
When the pope speaks, the whole world listens, and we want to make sure when the Holy Father speaks, he has all of the information available in order to fully understand the issue. So, my job has been to make sure the Vatican understands what we know as the United States, what we’ve seen, the unjustified attack, and they can put that into their equation when they speak.
Additionally, I’ve worked with Cardinal (Matteo) Zuppi extensively on trying to bring Ukrainian children home. We’ve brought over 100 home right now, and that number continues to increase on a constant basis. We’ve worked together as well on trying to seek a path forward for peace in Ukraine. So, when big issues like that are being discussed the Vatican is right in the middle of them.
It’s been said that the Vatican is a good listening post. Has that been your experience?
One hundred percent. It’s exceptional. We are working on seeking peace in Israel and Gaza as well. The Vatican has the Holy Family Church right in Gaza that the Holy Father calls every night, every single night at seven o’clock, he calls the church to find out if everybody is okay, what’s the food situation, how is the water holding out, how are the 500 plus that are living there and all of them have information.
We worked together at one point with the Vatican to help bring a kidnapped sister home from Africa, and the incredible compliment of abilities helped to get that done, because on the United States side we obviously have extraordinarily good intelligence information, the ability to have an embassy throughout the region in different countries, and in effect the Vatican almost has an embassy in every town because they have a church in every town, so when you combine the abilities of the two groups to be able to use it for good, we were able to bring an American sister home.
In terms of collaboration on issues such as Ukraine and Gaza, there are some shared priorities, but there are also differences in strategy and approach. How have you navigated that?
We’re two distinct governments. We don’t line up exactly with any country in the world, so the way I navigate it is I represent the United States, and I’m working with another government, the Holy See, and we agree on so many things. There are some things we don’t agree on exactly, but we have an open and clear discussion on them, and overall, we have an extraordinarily good relationship.
What would you say are the biggest points of convergence between the United States and the Holy See?
The pope’s worldview, I obviously can’t speak for Pope Francis, is to protect human dignity, that every person’s humanity is precious. We feel the same way in the United States. A family who lived in Bucha had the right to live in peace and to raise their family there, and the Russians didn’t have the right to come in and slaughter people on the streets, in an exact copy, almost, of Hitler in 1939. So, the basic human dignity of every person is something that both the Holy See and the United States agree on.
We collaborate every single day on protecting the human dignity of people, we collaborate every day on ensuring that people can be fed, that people can get clean water, that their right to an education is protected. You see Pope Francis and he talks about smelling like the sheep, standing up for every single person that no one is left behind. Well, that’s what we do as a country, that’s what we do throughout the world.
When you look at Israel and Gaza, the world looks to the United States to try to help solve the problem. They look at us as the only place that can come up with a solution that might work. When you look at Ukraine, the whole world looks to the United States to help make sure Ukraine can survive, so we are truly the indispensable nation in this world.
There have been issues with some of your predecessors in terms of the Holy See’s stance on China. Has that also been an issue in your tenure?
Oh sure. We don’t agree on China. Our experience with China has been that without China, Russia’s attack against Ukraine would be over, that China supplies them with technology, with information, with assistance that keeps their war machine rolling. China has been incredibly oppressive against the Uyghurs, and parts of the Church, and the Holy See I think understands these, we’ve talked about this information with them. The Holy See is hoping that China can start to improve, and we do as well, and are reaching out to try to help the 12 million Catholics there, but what we hope is that they do it with a very clear eye of what’s going on in China.
So you would say that they are aware of the red flags, but are hoping for the best?
I can’t speak for them, but we believe that what we see in China is what China really is.
The pope has also been somewhat critical of the United States on the climate agenda. It was the only country he called out by name in his most recent document on the environment. What reverberations has that had?
Well, we know the facts. We know how hard our country has worked to meet all of the climate goals and we continue to pursue that, to work every day for a cleaner planet, for a safer planet, and that’s the information we provide the Holy See. We hope they can see just how well we’re doing.
On a more personal level, what’s going to be your next act after this?
I’m planning on going home. The way the State Department works is you’re not allowed to sign up for a next act until you’re done with the present one, so my efforts right now are to work nonstop to run across the finish line, to work hard every day, and that’s what we’ve been doing.
Just this past weekend, I was in the room with President Biden and Pope Francis at the G7 talking about the most critical issues in the world, talking about Ukraine, and talking about Israel and Gaza, and President Biden’s nonstop efforts, traveling the world, to seek peace. I know that Pope Francis hopes for the same thing.
I’ve grown to love Italy, to love Rome. It’s been an extraordinary opportunity to work with all of the people who work so hard in the Vatican, across the board. People don’t know that it’s not only dedicated priests and others, but it’s laypeople, it’s the sisters, religious sisters, who work across the world every day to feed children, to educate children, in the most difficult, dangerous, unsafe places in the world, so the world of the Holy See is a lot bigger than just Rome. They are making a difference every day across the world.
If you could give a piece advice to your predecessor, regardless of wherever they fall on the political spectrum, what would it be?
The first thing I’ll say is the person directly leading the embassy after me, her name is Laura Hochla, and she’s probably more talented than I am, so she probably doesn’t need much advice from me, she’ll do an extraordinary job.
Anybody else who comes after me, I’d just say be yourself. That you’ll be dealing with a group at the Vatican who are incredibly bright, incredibly hardworking, and our focused on trying to make it so that every person’s life is better, and to never ever forget that when people ask, what country do you represent, you represent the United States.
Follow Elise Ann Allen on X: @eliseannallen
